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Thank you all for trying to get more info,

At least I got the death details for Alice .

I did get the marriage certificate the occupation for Jame was Brass finisher
as said mothers name ?? the only thing I can think off is she was hoping to marry her sons father and that is why he had the surname Murdock

Thanks again

(not sure if below comes in anywhere folks!, from below)

Chris :)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1323629


Sylann Report 23 Apr 2013 11:41

Yes we have come to that conclusion also found out the grandsons in the 1871 census were illegitimate sons of Elizabeth-Archibald Porteous Liddle and Helen, had James Murdock Liddle, I think Helen married the father james Murdock in 1871 not got the certificate yet


edits (to go with 'Incoming New York posted earlier)

(outgoing for 1921 'Carmina', Find My Past, she is listed with James (20. occ. Engineer) Alice (45) Annie 16) (also, top of image, Robert Murdoch (23. occ. Shepherd) Evelyn Townson (17. Student)

Well, I had a look at the 1871 marriage cert, and it doesn't help much, I'm afraid - in fact raises more questions:

11 May 1871, at West United Presbyterian Church, Linlithgow.
James Murdoch, bran finisher (?), bachelor, age 24.
No father listed. Mother: Janet McNair
Usual residence: Dumbarton.

Helen Liddle, domestic servant, spinster, 27
Father: James Liddle, shoemaker
Mother: Elizabeth Liddle, ms Roy.

I don't understand his mother's name. It doesn't give a maiden surname, so that ought to mean McNair was her maiden name - so why is James's surname Murdoch?

I don't see him in either Dumbarton or Linlithgow in 1871.
There are lots of James Murdoch/Murdock s and Janet McNairs in lots of places, but none seem like the right mother and son.
There are lots of James Murdoch/Murdocks with mother Janet Murdpch, but again, none leap out.
I can't see a likely birth for him. There's only one in Scotland in 1847, in Ayr, with mother's maiden name Janet McNair, but she's married to that James's father.

A mystery!

By 1881 he's switched his surnames round:

Helen Murdoch
in the 1881 Scotland Census
Name: Helen Murdoch
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relationship: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Linlithgow, Linlithgow
Registration Number: 668
Registration district: Linlithgow
Civil Parish: Linlithgow
County: West Lothian
Address: 264 High Street
Occupation: Housekeeper
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 18
LINE: 1
Roll: cssct1881_273
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Liddle 32
James Liddle 2
Helen Murdoch 36
James L Murdoch 10

For our benefit, here is Helen from1871 on.




1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

310, High Street, Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland



James Liddle Head Married Male 56 1815 Shoe Maker Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Margaret Liddle Wife Married Female 46 1825 - Midlothian, Scotland
>>Helen Liddle Daughter Unmarried Female 26 1845 Domestic Servant Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
James Liddle Son Unmarried Male 24 1847 Shoe Maker Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Thomas Liddle Son Unmarried Male 22 1849 Shoe Maker Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Janet Liddle Daughter Unmarried Female 15 1856 Domestic Servant Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Robt Liddle Son - Male 13 1858 Shoe Maker Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Marion Liddle Daughter - Female 10 1861 Scholar Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
John Liddle Son - Male 7 1864 Scholar Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
A P Liddle Grand Son - Male 7 1864 Scholar Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
William Liddle Son - Male 4 1867 - Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
>>James M Liddle Grand Son - Male 0 1871 - Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
?



1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

264, High Street, Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland


Thomas Liddle Head Widower Male 32 1849 Shoemaker Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
James Liddle Son - Male 2 1879 - Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
>>Helen Murdoch Sister Married Female 36 1845 Housekeeper Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
>>James L Murdoch Nephew - Male 10 1871 Scholar Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland



1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

Lion Well Wynd, Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland


Thomas Liddle Head Widower Male 42 1849 Shoemaker Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
James Liddle Son - Male 12 1879 Scholar Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Hellen Murdoch Sister Married Female 47 1844 - Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland



1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

East U F Church (Caretaker's House), Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland


Thomas Liddle Head Widower Male 52 1849 Shoemaker (Benchaman) Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
James Liddle Son Single Male 22 1879 Clerk (Commercial) Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland
Helen Murdoch Sister Married Female 57 1844 - Linlithgow, Linlithgowshire (West Lothian), Scotland




1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

26 James Watt T'Ce Barrow in Furness, Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England


Alice Murdoch Head Married Female - 36 1875 Lancs Newton in F
Mary Murdoch Daughter Single Female School 14 1897 Linlithgowshire Linlithgow Resident
Helen Murdoch Daughter Single Female School 13 1898 Lancs Barrow in F
James Murdoch Son - Male School 11 1900 Lancs Barrow in F
Annie Murdoch Daughter - Female - 6 1905 Lancs Barrow in F
>>Helen Murdoch Mother Married Female - 67 1844 Linlithgowshire Tartraven Resident

Helen had been married 41 years and had had 2 children, one of whom had died.

Son James Murdoch in 1871:

James M Liddle
in the 1871 Scotland Census
Name: James M Liddle
Age: 3 Mo
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relationship: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Linlithgow
Registration Number: 668
Registration district: Linlithgow
Civil Parish: Linlithgow
Town: Linlithgow
County: West Lothian
Address: 310 High Street
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 116
LINE: 2
Roll: CSSCT1871_153
Household Members:
Name Age
James Lidder 56
Margaret Lidder 46
Helen Lidder 26
James Lidder 24
Thomas Lidder 20
Janet Lidder 15
Robt Lidder 13
Marion Lidder 10
John Lidder 7
A R Liddle 7
Willes Liddle 4
James M Liddle 3 Mo

Re James senior -
if you spend a few credits on ScotlandsPeople, you can view the image of the original marriage cert, which will tell you both spouses' parents' names, and also James's occupation and age. That will give some clue to finding him in earlier censuses - and maybe later ones too:

1871 MURDOCH JAMES LIDDLE HELEN LINLITHGOW /WEST LOTHIAN 668/00 0011

I'll have to have a proper look at the family, I think James sen travelled back and forth he was an engine fitter at the ship yard? Not got much on the Murdock's his parents
married after he was born and I think he was the only child. No trace of the father before or after the marriage in 1871?

Curious! Alice returning to US in 1921. With her is Alice Townson Murdoch, 7 years, 11 months, says also born Barrow. Nearest relative from whence they came was Alice's sister Mrs. Abbott, 388 Brook St., Preston.

Further down the page is James Murdoch, 20, Annie May Murdoch, 18 and Robert B. Murdoch, 23. all born Barrow. Nearest relative for first 2 is aunt Mrs. Abbott, same as Alice's sister. For Robert it's his father Thomas Murdoch, Beoch? Ringford, Kirkudbrightshire. He's heading for Wyoming, all the others heading for Quincy, Massachusetts.

Alice Murdoch

in the New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Record Image View

View image(s) of the ship

Name: Alice Murdoch
Arrival Date: 8 Apr 1921
Birth Date: abt 1875
Birth Location: England
Birth Location Other: barrow in f'n??
Age: 45 Years 11 Months
Gender: Female
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Carmania
Search Ship Database: Search for the Carmania in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

Thank you

Alice Murdock

in the 1930 United States Federal Census
Record Image View

View blank form

Name: Alice Murdock
Birth Year: abt 1877
Gender: Female
Race: White
Birthplace: England
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Homemaker?: Yes
Home in 1930: Newark, Essex, New Jersey
Map of Home: View Map
Street address: Isabella Av
Block: 1750
House Number in Cities or Towns: 176
Dwelling Number: 199
Family Number: 326
Age at First Marriage: 19
Attended School: No
Able to Read and Write: Yes
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Birthplace: England
Language Spoken: English
Immigration Year: 1910
Naturalization: Alien
Able to Speak English: Yes
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
James Murdock 55, born Scotland, immigrated 1899
Alice Murdock 53, born England, immigrated 1910
Mary Murdock 32, born Scotland, immigrated 1910
Alice Murdock 17, born Massachusetts

She was married not widowed on the death certificate.

They had Mary 1897 think she was born in Scotland
Helen L 1898
James 1900
James 1870 was born in Scotland so it looks as though it's the
annnie 1906

Yes that's the one thought it might give more details of the family if she was a widow
etc Thank you for looking

Could this be her in 1940?

Alice Murdock

in the 1940 United States Federal Census
Record Image View

View blank form

Name: Alice Murdock
Age: 65
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Gender: Female
Race: White
Birthplace: England
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Home in 1940: Newark, Essex, New Jersey
Map of Home in 1940: View Map
Street: Isabellaave
House Number: 170
Inferred Residence in 1935: Newark, Essex, New Jersey
Residence in 1935: Same House
Resident on farm in 1935: No
Citizenship: Alien
Sheet Number: 6A
Attended School or College: No
Highest Grade Completed: Elementary school, 8th grade
Income Other Sources: No
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Jamesh Murdock 68, born Scotland
Alice Murdock 65, born England
Annie Murdock 34, born England
Alicet Murdock 27, born Massachusetts

Is this the one you mean?

Alice Townson Murdoch

in the Pennsylvania, Death Certificates, 1906-1963
Record Image View

Name: Alice Townson Murdoch
[Alice Townson Townson]
Gender: Female
Race: White
Age: 70
Birth Date: 22 Jan 1875
Birth Place: Barrow In Frumess England
Death Date: 2 Nov 1945
Death Place: Lock Haven, Clinton, Pennsylvania, USA
Father: John Townson
Mother: Mary Stone
Spouse: James Murdock
Certificate Number: 93730
Search for Alice Townson Murdoch in Pennsylvania Wills & Probates collection

I'm trying to sort out part of my tree I have James Murdock married to a Helen Liddle in 1871.Helen had already had a son James Murdock Liddle Dec1870,
James 1870 went on to marry Aice Townson and had 4 children
Just noticed ancestry have a death for Alice 1945 Pennsylvania their is a bit on ancestry but just wondered if it tells you any more if you actually go into it and I don't have worldwide

It would be appreciated if some one could have a look for me