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I am looking for information on a Harry Smith born 15th November 1868 & his sister Mary Ann Smith born 6th September 1870 at Derby Derbyshire.
Their parents were James Smith & Mary Ann Briggs
In 1871 They are both living as boarders ( Harry aged 3 yrs & Mary Ann aged 6 mths )at 70 High Street Litchurch with Samuel Briggs his wife Sarah (nee Bell) daughter Ann & Brother-in-law James Bell.
I am trying to find the connection with Samuel Briggs as I can not find a sister Mary Ann for him.
I am also looking for a passenger list for Harry Smith coming to Australia he died in Queensland
Mary Ann (never married )became a Salvation Army Officer & died in 1949 at 29 Dorset House Mayfield Road Derbyshire.
Thank You

(Mary below, you perhaps have)

Chris :)

1939 Register (Find My Past)

29 Dorset House Mayfield Road , Derby C.B., Derbyshire
Mary Smith 06 Sep 1870 Female Salvation Army Officer Single


England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription (Find My Past)

(1865 Marriage for Samuel, has below)

Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Briggs

(also)

Derbyshire Marriages Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Samuel
Last name Briggs
Age 22
Birth year 1843
Marital status Bachelor
Occupation Railway Labourer
Marriage year 1865
Marriage day 18
Marriage month Jun
Place Derby St Paul
Spouse's name (last, first) Bell Sarah Ann
Father's name William Briggs
Father's occupation Labourer
Witnessess John Blood/Lucy Blood
Signed
Signed
By banns or licence Banns
Residence Derwent Row
County Derbyshire

Not seeing the marriage of james and Mary ann

Sorry to say I haven't been able to find a marriage either. Have sent for Harry's birth certificate (hoping it is the right one as a few for 1868) hoping it will reveal that the mother was Mary Ann Briggs.
On Harry's marriage certificate it has James as his father.
1881 census they (Harry & Mary Ann ) are living with Thomas & Mary Walpole ( nee Whitehurst) at 15 Bold Lane Derby.I have now been told that Mary Whitehurst & Sarah Ann Bell were 1/2 sisters, I guess they went there after Sarah Ann died in 1877.

I have obtained a little more information on Harry Smith he spent sometime on the Isle of Man with a family by the name of Gray/Grey who were Smallgoods Butcher.
Harry's first port of call coming to Australia was Adelaide possibly a Official Immigration point

If James Smith and Mary Ann Briggs weren't married, maybe this is Mary Ann in 1871, with George and Frances Hunt at 19 Pear Tree Road, Litchurch:

Mary Ann Briggs (unmarried, milliner)
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Mary Ann Briggs
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Newark, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Litchurch
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Litchurch
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Derby
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Household schedule number: 148
Piece: 3573
Folio: 65
Page Number: 27



Going back through earlier censuses, she seems to have been the daughter of William Pattman Briggs (born c1812, Balderton, Notts.) and his wife Jane Pattinson.

Samuel Briggs was born c1844, Ashby, Leicestershire. (per 1871 census), so this probably his birth. The page number looks like 11 to me, but could be either 21 or 4 as the transcribers thought:

Births Jun 1842 (>99%)
Briggs Samuel Ashby de la Z 15 21



Samuel Briggs
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Samuel Briggs
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: 1842
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Ashby, Leicestershire, England
Civil Parish: Chaddesden
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Shardlow
Sub-registration district: Spondon
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 76
Piece: 2494
Folio: 60
Page Number: 14
Briggs Samuel Ashby de la Z 15 4


I don't see him conclusively in 1851. Who were his parents? I was hoping that perhaps William Pattman Briggs was a brother of Samuel's father.

Perhaps it's just coincidence that the Smith children were living with him in 1871.
If their mother was any relation, she might have been a cousin or even more distant.

(Of course, she may not have been that Mary Ann living in Litchurch in 1871 )

(something about this lot that is annoying!, lol. have been looking round on below free link in case of anything)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(above has a possible Mary Whitehurst)

Chris :)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1191073

(Derbyshire Parish Records)

(Derek is the one on above link for more in depth help, always worth asking him)


Baptism
County Nottinghamshire
Place Balderton
Church name St Giles
Register type Transcript
Baptism date 4 Jul 1847
Birth date 27 Jun 1847
Person forename Mary Ann
Person sex F
Father forename William Patman
Father surname BRIGGS
Mother forename Jane


Baptism
County Nottinghamshire
Place Balderton
Church name St Giles
Register type Transcript
Baptism date 26 Nov 1843
Birth date 18 Nov 1843
Person forename William Pattinson
Person sex M
Father forename William Patman
Father surname BRIGGS
Mother forename Jane

(looks to tie in family mentioned by AG above, then there was this below!)

County Lincolnshire
Place Witham on the Hill
Church name St Andrew
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 151
Marriage date 20 Nov 1876
Groom forename Thomas
Groom surname WALPOLE
Groom age 38
Groom condition Widower
Groom parish Toft
Groom occupation Labourer
Bride forename Sarah Ann
Bride surname CLARK
Bride age 47
Bride condition Widow
Bride parish Toft
Groom father forename William
Groom father surname WALPOLE
Groom father occupation Labourer
Bride father occupation Deceased
Witness Alfred PELL
Witness Elizabeth PELL


edits (the 1865 Derbys. Briggs Marriage, John Bell as Father for Sarah Ann)

Marriages Jun 1870 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Walpole Thomas Derby 7b 709
WHITEHURST Mary Derby 7b 709


First name(s) Thomas
Last name Walpole
Marriage year 1870
Parish Traffic Street Primitive Methodist Chapel
Place Derby
Spouse's first name Mary
Spouse's last name Whitehurst
Reference DU/23/083


(perhaps better to wait for Cert. ordered!, think Derek would 'get his teeth' into it though, lol)

Sarah Ann Bell who married Samuel Briggs was born to John Bell & Ann Tipper, her mother Ann 2nd marriage was to a William Henry Whitehurst 31/3 1851 Lancs their daughter was Mary Jane Whitehurst born 17/8/1851 who married Thomas Walpole in 1870.
This is where Harry Smith & sister Mary Ann were living at the time of the 1881 Census which makes Mary Jane their aunt.

Can not find a marriage for a Mary Ann Briggs to a James Smith makes me wonder if Mary Ann Briggs is correct will see once certificate is received

Samuel Briggs parents were William Briggs & Ann Tetley who married 9/10/1833 at Ashby De le Zouch he had 5 siblings, I have their names

Just noticed that Thomas & Mary Jane Walpole were living at 177 Pear Tree Road during the 1911 census
In a previous message there was mention of a Mary Ann Briggs living at 19 Pear tree Road during the 1871 Census

Looking back through this thread, Ellen, I notice that first you say,

"Their parents were James Smith & Mary Ann Briggs"

Then later you say, re Harry's birth cert,

"hoping it will reveal that the mother was Mary Ann Briggs."

and later again, "makes me wonder if Mary Ann Briggs is correct ."

Why do/did you think Mary Ann was the children's mother in the first place?
Do you have any documentation that suggests it?
You don't give any information about her - what do you know about her? I'm confused!

For that matter, what do you know about James Smith? - you don't give any information about him either.
We might find some clue that way.
Were the children orphaned, when they're not with parents in the censuses?

In 1881, when Harry and Mary Ann are with the Walpoles, there's also a younger child, Samuel Smith, listed with them.
Is he a brother?
If so, their parents are still alive at least until c1875.
(Or else their father and a new wife; or else their mother, widowed, but having Samuel with another partner.)


Samuel Smith
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Samuel Smith
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Relationship to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Matlock, Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Derby All Sts
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Street address: 15 Bold Lane
Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 76
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3407
Folio: 27
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Walpole 32
Mary Walpole 29
William Walpole 9
Anna M. Walpole 6
Ernest A. Walpole 3
Harry Smith 14
Mary A. Smith 11
Samuel Smith 6

Yes I noticed Samuel Smith with Harry & Mary Ann living with Thomas & Mary Jane Whitehurst in 1881 but have no idea who he is.

I have now sited the marriage certificate of Harry Smith to Elizabeth Ellen Sporer 30th December 1896 at Clermont in Queensland he has as his parents James Smith & Mary Briggs, still waiting on the birth certificate

Perhaps you also need Mary Ann and Samuel's birth certs, in case the mothers are different (or in case no father is listed for Samuel) .

Difficult to know which birth record is Samuel's, though - there are none recorded in Matlock reg district around 1875, although several in other areas of Derbyshire.

Presumably this is Mary Ann's birth:

Births Dec 1870 (>99%)
Smith Mary Ann Derby 7b 406

My cousin sent for Mary Ann Smith birth certificate (she told me she sent for Harry Smith's so I didn't) but it came back born 9th October 1870 born at Madeley father John Smith (Farm Bailiff ) mother Mary Ann Osborne of course not the right family. So still searching.
I am now in touch with the grand daughter of Harry Smith who lives in Queensland, hoping we can find some further information will let you all know if we do

Hmmm.
Maybe the children in the 1881 census with the Walpoles aren't the right ones??

This could be the same three children in 1891, although ages are a bit out .
Joseph and Stephen born Nottingham, everyone else in Derby.:

Henry Smith
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Henry Smith
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Smith
Mother's name: Elizabeth A Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Derby, Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
Town: Nottingham
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration district: Nottingham
Sub registration district: Nottingham North East
ED, institution, or vessel: 19a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2696
Folio: 39
Page Number: 71
Household Members:
Name Age
John Smith 45 - Brickmaker
Elizabeth A Smith 44
Henry Smith 21 <<<<<<<< Engineer
Mary A Smith 18 <<<<<<<< Factory minder
Sameer Smith 16 <<<<<<<<< (image says Samuel, with faint "l") - Corn merchant
Frances Smith 13 - (actually Francis) - Printer's boy
Caroline Smith 11
Frederick Smith 8
Joseph Smith 8
Stephen Smith 2

Wondering how I would go about finding the cemetery Mary Smith who died 1st April 1949 would be buried in.
She died at 27 Mayfield Road Subdistrict of Derby North West in the County Borough of Derby
Signature of informant on the death certificate says ???? the body to be buried 84 Melbourne Street Derby would this be a Salvation Army Churchyard as she was a Salvation Army Commandant Recruiting Sergeant at the Derby Central Corps?

(snippet below)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1191073

(as mentioned earlier, give Derek a 'shot', he might also know of Cemetery nearby)

Chris :)

17 May 1949 - Derby Daily Telegraph - Derby, Derbyshire, England

Leaving Derby
MAJOR & MRS. WILFRED BROWN, of 84, Melbourne-street, Derby, who have been responsible for the work of Derby Central Corps of the Salvation Army for the past three years, leave Derby on Thursday for Exeter...Many people will remember Major Brown for his work in the winter of 1946 - 7 when, with his mobile canteen, he supplied free cups of tea to the thousands of people who were then queueing for coke.

(and 1927, same address, Major (Resident Officer) was Fred W. Avis, also there 1939)


Edits (below has mention, of scriptures being read by Commandant Mary Smith)

25 November 1938 - Derby Daily Telegraph - Derby, Derbyshire, England

Derby Central Corps of the Salvation Army, declared open a two-days bazaar which began at the Salvation Army Citadel, Derby yesterday. The object the bazaar, which was continued to-day, was raise about £30 towards expenses of the Corps.

We have found out that Mary Ann Smith (Salvation Army Commander ) who died 1st April 1949 is buried in the Nottingham Road Cemetery with some Walpole relatives. Just have to find out who they are, we know she lived with Thomas ( died 7/10/1922 )& Mary Walpole (died 14/4/1918 ) in 1881 perhaps she is with them?

I have found a Mary (no Ann ) Briggs born 1834 Leicestershire with parents Thomas Briggs & Mary Ann Clark.
Thomas Briggs was born 17/1/1811 to John Briggs & Hannah Newell they also had a son William born 16/2/1813 who married Ann Tetley & they had a son Samuel born 24/4/1842. Samuel & his wife Sarah Ann (nee Bell ) is where Harry & Mary Ann Smith are boarding in 1871
This makes Samuel & Mary Briggs cousins.
I am wondering if I have the right Mary Briggs who married James Smith even tho I can not find a marriage for them?