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I have this family in the 1861 census:

Name: Thomas Lyons
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Lyons
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Birmingham


Thomas Lyons 40
Mary Lyons 35 b Ireland
Catherine Lyons 14 b ireland
James Lyons 11 b Birmingham
John Lyons 8 b Birmingham
Mary Ann Lyons 6 b Birmingham
Bridget Lyons 4 b Birmingham
Thomas Lyons 1 b Birmingham, 15mths on image,) twins
Patrick Lyons 1 b Birmingham, 15 mths on image )
James Grealy 22

I have Bridget's BC (in the name of Lines, one of several names the family appear under), MMN Camel, b 6/06/1857

I also have Patrick's birth cert (also in the name of Lines), MMN Tamill. b 13/12/1859.

I have what I think is James's birth cert, b 19/04/1850 at 3 Court Old Inkleys, MMN very unclear but starts Cam and doesn't seem to have an "l" st the end. Also, father's name is given a James.

Father on all 3 certs is Labourer or Bricklayer's Labourer.

I am pretty sure this is the family in 1851, living in Old Inkleys:

Thos Lynah
[Thos Lynald] - on image

Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Lynah
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Jude

Thos Lynah 35
Mary Lynah 28
Catherine Lynah 4
James Lynah 1 Mo
James Lynah 28 Brother, b Ireland
John Lynah 18 Brother, b Ireland
Mike Lynah 12 Brother b Ireland

I am pretty sure that James's age is 10 months on the image, which ties up with the DOB from the birth cert (census taken on 30/03).

As well as the surnames given above, the family also later used the name Lynock; the first time this name appears on the BMDs is when James married in 1869 (I have that marriage cert, father Thomas). I also have a familysearch record for the same marriage which gives the name as Lynagh:

Jacobum Lynagh
Spouse's Name: Saram Rogers
Event Date: 14 Nov 1869
Event Place St. Peter, Birmingham, Warwick, England
Father's Name Thomæ Lynagh

I have found a marriage record in Ireland for a Thomas Lynagh and a Mary Camphill:


Name:Thomam Lynagh
Gender:Male
Event Type:Marriage
Marriage Date:Oct 1845
Marriage Place:Strokestown, Roscommon, Ireland
Parish Variants:Cloonfinlough, Kiltrustan, Lisanuffy, Lisanuffy and Cloonfinlough, Lisonuffy
Diocese:Elphin
Spouse: Mariam Campbell - Camphill on image.

So, are Mary Cam?, Mary Tamill , Mary Camel and Mary Camphill the same person?

Any opinions?

Just a guess, but I would say they are. Variations in pronunciation and spelling by record-taker, and unable to be corrected by possibly illiterate people who wouldn't know how to spell their name in any case.


Also the transcriber's deciphering of the (possibly poor) handwriting on the original records will play a part.

Exactly what I feel, ArgyllGran. None of the certs have signatures, just marks. I am searching through Irish baptism images on Ancestry to see if I can find one for Thomas & Mary's daughter Catherine.

Another wild guess, purely based on that Roscommon marriage, which itself is a guess, and Mary's age in the 1861 census :


Maria Cammel
in the Ireland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911

Name: Maria Cammel
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 19 Apr 1827
Baptism Place: Roman Catholic, Boyle, Roscommon, Ireland
Father: Matheus Cammel
Mother:Anna Mcdermott

FHL Film Number:989743

Good find, AG! Definitely a possibility. I wonder if I should try to get the birth certs of the other two children but there are a few options!

This family really liked to change their name. Even though James married as Lynock, his younger brother, John, married as Lines a couple of years later and James, as Lines, was a witness!

No help with your query, Potty, but do you have these? I would assume that this may be Thomas, one of the twins?


England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935 Transcription

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First name(s) Thomas
Last name Lynock Or Lyons And Lines
Occupation Filer
Age 19
Birth year 1861
Year 1880
Date 30 Jul 1880
Court Birmingham
Place Warwickshire
Victim's first name(s) Thomas
Victim's last name Ray
Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace
Series HO140


He stole 2 chairs from the victim but had quite a few previous convictions.




England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935 Transcription

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First name(s) Thomas
Last name Lynock or Lyons or Lines
Birth year 1861
Birth date ? ? 1861
Occupation Filer
Year 1881
Date ? ? 1881
Place -
Series MEPO6
Source Habitual Criminals Register 1881
Piece number 1

He was 5'3" with a 'cast right eye, scars on top of chest, bend of left arm and front of left ear.

Potty...

I have been searching through the RC Registers for Roscommon and eventually found Mary's Baptism which corresponds with what ArgyllGran posted...They are difficult to decifer and unfortunately the PP hadn't put the Townland where the couple resided in the Register but It confirms the surnames as CAMPBELL and McDermott...

Marie(Mary) daughter of Mathew Campbell and Anna/Honora McDermott..
Sponsors were Jacobi and Anna McHugh

There was another Baptism of a Honora Campbell 2nd April 1821 Sponsors Roger and Brid McDermott.

The Baptisms were in the RC Parish of Boyle Diocese of Elphin Co.Roscommon

Potty..

The RC Register for Strokestown shows the Marriage on Oct.6th1845 of
Thomas Lynagh and Marie Campbell Witness' James and Pat.Lynagh.
The Baptism of Catherine is proving elusive as there are pages missing and filed in different Registers.

Pottty...This is Sarah's father..(1861)....I cross ref. James and Sarah's marriage and father is Patrick.

I think you have the corrects family for the Lynagh/Lyons etc .
Patrick Rogers /Rodgers wife Mary and son John are living /Lodging Court3 House 3 Old Inkley in 1851....

Patrick Rodger

England and Wales Census, 1861




Name Patrick Rodger
County Warwickshire
Event Type Census
Event Date 1861
Event Place Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Ecclesiastical Parish St Judes
Registration District Birmingham
Residence Note Old Inkleys
Gender Male
Age 36
Marital Status Married
Occupation Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Birth Year (Estimated) 1825
Birthplace Ireland
Page Number 16
Registration Number RG09
Piece/Folio 2150 / 11
Affiliate Record Type Household

Mary Rodgers 32 b Ireland wife
MaryA Rodgers 9 b B/Ham
Sarah Rodgers 7 b. B/Ham
Margaret Rodgers 5 b B/ham

Don't see John b.Ireland he should be abt.14yrs old.
On 1851..he is aged 24 !!!

Potty ..Cannot find the Rogers 1871 but found this...Looks like Sarah's mother was Carney.



Patricius Rogers

England Births and Christenings




Name Patricius Rogers
Gender Male
Christening Date Aug 1861
Christening Place St. Peter's, Birmingham, Warwick, England
Birth Date 29 Jul 1861
Father's Name Patricii Rogers
Mother's Name Mariae (Mary) Carney

Thanks, Alviegail and Erin.

I had one of the Criminal Records for Thomas but not the second. I can't find Thomas in the 1881 or after and I can't find his twin, Patrick after the 1861.

Erin, I have seen the Lynagh/Campbell marriage and thought it looked more like Camphill.

I have Marie Carney as Sarah's mother but not sure how I got to it as I don't seem to have any births or baptisms for the children. Thanks for the baptism of Patrick, 1861. I didn't have him and like you I can' t find the Rogers in 1871. St Peter's is where James & Sarah married.

The baptism for Marie Campbell certainly fits.

I too have tried to search the registers for Catherine's baptism but, as you say, the registers are difficult to read.

Thanks again for your help - I am pretty certain that I have found the correct marriage for Thomas & Mary.

Potty..I am sure you have....but how you can work out who is who ..well I have spent hours trying to figure them out and given I don't have ancestry etc. its plain old fashioned detective work..!!

The James Grealey who was in the Lynagh household became Graley as time went on and he was a Roscommon Man...he married Ann CAMMELor Campbell ...take your pick..iii

I believe the years for Baptisms 1846-1851 for Strokestown are lost and that's a pain...

This may be Patrick's death. I'm sure you've seen it and it is not conclusive as it has not got an age of death. It is just a possible.

Deaths Sep 1861 (>99%)
Lyons Patrick Birmingham 6d 64


If this is the correct 1871 census for the family, Patrick is not on it.




1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Beak Street, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Lynes Head widower Male 50 1821 labourer Ireland
Transcription
Micheal Finnan Lodger - Male 36 1835 - Ireland
Transcription
Ann Finnan Lodger - Female 36 1835 - Ireland
Transcription
Thomas Lynes Son - Male 10 1861 - Warwickshire, England
Transcription
John Lynes Son - Male 18 1853 - Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Mary Lynes Daughter - Female 21 1850 - Warwickshire, England
Transcription
James Lynes Son - Male 18 1853 - Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Mary A Lynes Daughter - Female 16 1855 - Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Britchett Lynes Daughter - Female 13 1858 - Warwickshire, England

Yes, Alviegal, I think that is the right 1871, although the age for James is out and he should be married and I think the daughter, Mary, is actually Sarah his wife!

I agree, Erin, those baptisms do seem to be missing!

Have had a bit more success for Patrick Rogers - I have found a marriage in Castlebar, Mayo, for Patrick Rogers & Mary Carney:


Name Mary Carney
Event Type Marriage
Marriage Date Mar 1844
Marriage Place Castlebar, Mayo, Ireland

Parish Variants
Aglish, Aglish, Ballyhean and Breaghny, Aglish, Ballyheane and Breaghny, Ballheane, Ballyhean, Breaghny, Breaghwy

Diocese Tuam

Patt Rogers
Mary Carney

There is something written above that I can't read - very frustrating!

On the 1851, Patrick & Mary have a son John, 2, and I have a baptism in Castlebar for a John, son of Patrick Rogers and Mary Carney but it is in 1845, a bit early! Will look for a later one.

Potty...I have looked at the Rogers/Carney Marriage Castlebar the writing above is relative to the Priest and not the couple below..Pat and Mary.
John was Baptised d Feb.6 1845 but am not sure how old he really should be..2/4 I don't have access to original Census page and look a this (1851)..could kick myself I hadn't taken note before now...

Patrick Rogers Lodger M 29 Ireland
Mary Wife F 28 Ireland
John Rogers Son M 24 Ireland ....**** What does it say on the original image...???
Margaret Corney Lodger F 20 Ireland ...!!!!
Julia Corney Lodger F 16 Ireland ....!!!!

Whats the betting they are sisters of Mary

Here is that 1851 on fmp, Erin. John should be 2 not 24!



1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Old Tukleys House, 3 Court, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Mary Maley Head Widow Female 32 1819 Washer Woman Ireland
Transcription
John Maley Son Unmarried Male 12 1839 Road Spinner Ireland
Transcription
Joseph Maley Son - Male 4 1847 At Home Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Odine Rorke Lodger Unmarried Male 34 1817 Bricklayrs Labourer Ireland
Transcription
Ann - Lodger Married Female 28 1823 Bricklayrs Labourer Ireland
Transcription
Patrick - Son - Male 5 1846 At Home Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
John - Son - Male 1 1850 - Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Eleanor Cahil Lodger Widow Female 40 1811 Buton Maker Ireland
Transcription
Elean - Lodger Unmarried Female 17 1834 Buton Maker Ireland
Transcription
James Calvil Lodger Unmarried Male 7 1844 At Home Ireland
Transcription
Bridget Ganley Lodger - Female 27 1824 Dealer Ireland
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Catherine Ganley Lodger - Female 4 1847 At Home Ireland
Transcription
Mary Ann Ganley Lodger - Female 2 1849 At Home Ireland
Transcription
Esley Dunn Lodger - Female 33 1818 Hawker And Dealer Ireland
Transcription
Bridget Dunn Daughter - Female 7 1844 - Ireland
Transcription
Poll Jordon Lodger Unmarried Female 12 1839 Hawker And Dealer Ireland
Transcription
Thomas Durr Lodger - Male 2 1849 At Home Ireland

Patrick Rogers Lodger Married Male 29 1822 - Ireland
Transcription
Mary - Wife Married Female 28 1823 - Ireland
Transcription
>>John Rogers Son Unmarried Male 24 1827 - Ireland
Transcription
Margaret Corney Lodger Unmarried Female 20 1831 - Ireland
Transcription
Julia Corney Lodger Unmarried Female 16 1835 - Ireland

I did wonder if Margaret & Julia could be Mary's sisters. Can't find a baptism for Julia and there are too many for Margaret. A tree on Ancestry has a Julia marrying a John Brown in 1853, gives parents as Lawrence Carney & Honor but no sources given. On one of the censuses this Julia gives POB as Castlebar.