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Shirley - Re: "Could that mean either a registry office wedding or a non conformist church one"
Yes, that's exactly what it means.
Dea is incorrect in assuming RM was reserved for RC marrs. It is true that after the law was changed in 1898, and non-conformist ministers could apply to become "authorized persons" who were allowed to keep official marr rego's. the RCs chose not to apply until 1980-ish, and so (after abt 1905) they were the major non-conformist group whose marrs needed a registrar to attend with his officcial marr rego for the couple to sign to complete the ceremony.
Shirley - Re: "think the only way he will know fir certain as its a registrar marriage is by getting wedding cert. No other way round it. %3A-%29'
Not necessarily so. Although non-conformist churches couldn't keep official marr rego's, there's nothing to stop them keeping their own private rego's.
These often were identical to the official record, but not necessarily so.
RC rego's were inclined to Latinize stuff - their rego's are often held in the diocese archive.
Here's 2 examples from Burnley RD:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ASHWORTH Joseph BREARTON Sarah Ann Burnley Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston RM/104/86
WALMSLEY William INGHAM Isabella Burnley Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston RM/108/133
Marriage: 23 Apr 1898 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancs.
Joseph Ashworth -
Saram Annam Brearton -
Groom's Father: Adami Ashworth
Bride's Father: Thomae Brearton
Witness: Frederico Carolo Williams; Elizabetha Brearton
Married by: Henricus Jos: Hunt, Coad Miss
Register: Marriages 1874 - 1905, Page 344
Source: Original Parish Register
Marriage: 19 Mar 1898 Nazareth Unitarian Chapel, Padiham, Lancs.
William Walmsley - 23, labourer, 9, Railway Terr Simonstone
Isabella Ingham - 24, Weaver, 26, Chapel Row
Married by: Thomas Leyland
Source: Private Transcription
----------------------
Here's a more extreme example of non-standard content - the couple (my wife's gg grandparents) aren't even named
Marriage: 23 Jun 1838 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
[unnamed] McCann -
[unnamed] Aspinall -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, civitatis Wigan & Brigittae
Bride's Parents: Jacobi Aspinall, [of Wigan] & Mariae
Witness: Patricio McArdal, [of Wigan]; Esther Jackson, [of Wigan]
Married by: Hen. Segrave Miss. Apos.
Notes: [Bride's and groom's names not recorded. Here their surnames are taken from
their parents]
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 40
Source: Original register at LRO
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN George ASPINALL Margaret Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/50
Jacob is the Latinized form of James.
It's made even more confusing by the Latin case endings. English has only one special case ending (the apostrophe s) left, although Anglo-Saxon (and modern German) have case endings.
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Thankyou. So what does the RM stand for ...just a code ?
It used to be that if you didn't know the church when you applied to Burnley reg. They wouldn't look through all the non conformist stuff to check ....but I guess with the reg codes you could apply to southport anyway ? :-)
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1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
39 Pritchard St Burnley, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Mr J Haworth Head Married Male Overlooker 34 1877 Accrington Lancs
Mrs Haworth Wife Married Female - 33 1878 Burnley Lancs
Willie Haworth Son Single Male School 12 1899 Burnley Lancs
John Haworth Son Single Male School 10 1901 Burnley Lancs
Rhoda Haworth Daughter Single Female School 8 1903 Burnley Lancs
Annie Haworth Daughter Single Female School 5 1906 Burnley Lancs
Married 12 years. 4 children- all living
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His Royal Marines service sheet (FMP):
Royal Marines 1899-1919 Transcription
First name(s) William
Last name Haworth
Birth year 1899
Birth date 18 Jan 1899
Service number 19316
Enrolment date 19 Dec 1916
Division full text Royal Marine Light Infantry: Plymouth Division
Archive reference ADM 159/164/19316
Catalogue description Admiralty: Royal Marines: Registers of Service
Record set Royal Marines 1899-1919
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Service Records
Father: James. 50 Raglan Road, Burnley
Enlisted: Manchester
Born: Burnley, Lancashire
Trade: Cotton Weaver
Religion: Baptist <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
General Character: Very Good
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His parents 1939:
Haworth Household (4 People) 7 Owen Street , Burnley C.B., Lancashire, England
James Haworth 26 Oct 1876 Male Cotton Loom Overlooker Hw Married
Mary E Haworth 09 Jun 1877 Female Unpaid Domestic Married
Arthur Haworth 20 Mar 1912 Male Manufacturer (Travelling) Lorry Dhet & Blind Single
Alice Greenwood (Haworth) 04 Apr 1914 Female Ladies Hairdresser Single
-----------------------------------
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations)
HAWORTH James of 7 Owen Street, Burnley died 23 December 1950 Administration London 2 February to Mary Elizabeth Haworth, widow.
HAWORTH Mary Elizabeth of 109 Rosehill Road, Burnley widow died 18 April 1961 at 182 Burnshaw Road, Burnley, Probate Manchester 17 May to William Haworth, retired Mill Manager and Arthur Haworth sunblind manufacturer.
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Wife's death:
Name: Ellen Haworth
Birth Date: 13 Jun 1893
Date of Registration: Sep 1973
Age at Death: 80
Registration district: Burnley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10b Page: 1714
probatesearch.service.gov.uk
HAWORTH Ellen of 302 Coal Clough Lane, Burnley died 24 September 1973 Administration with Will Liverpool 29 November.
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Marvelous thankyou ...thats a brilliant lot of info ....he is going to be so pleased . He thought they all came from a certain area of Burnley and he will be surprised at where they actually did live . Thankyou very much . :-D
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Hi again
Please could anyone check to see if we can discover parents of Mary Elizabeth whitworth born burnley in 1877/1876? I noticed her m.m.n May have been iddon. The only marriage I can find is in 1864 in Blackpool.
Can anyone find Mary Elizabeth whitworth on the 1881 census in burnley ?
:-)
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1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
56, Accrington Road, Habergham Eaves, Burnley, Lancashire, England
John Whitworth Head Married Male 38 1843 Bookeeper Burnley, Lancashire,
Elizabeth Whitworth Wife Married Female 38 1843 Bookeeper Wife Lancashire,
Thomas Whitworth Son Single Male 14 1867 Cotton Factory Laborer Burnley, Lancashire,
James Whitworth Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Burnley, Lancashire, England
Hannah Whitworth Daughter Single Female 6 1875 Scholar Burnley, Lancashire,
Mary E Whitworth Daughter Single Female 3 1878 - Burnley, Lancashire, England
Martha A Whitworth Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - Burnley, Lancashire,
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1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
8, Bankhouse Street, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Hannah Whitworth Head Widow Female 39 1822 Fund Holder Burnley, Lancashire,
George Whitworth Son Unmarried Male 21 1840 Mill Mechanic Burnley, Lancashire,
John Whitworth Son Unmarried Male 18 1843 Book Keeper Burnley, Lancashire,
Mary Whitworth Sister In Law Unmarried Female 64 1797 - Wakefield, Yorkshire,
Martha Cowell Visitor Unmarried Female 66 1795 Fund Holder Halifax, Yorkshire,
Henrietta Whitaker Servant Unmarried Female 20 1841 House Servant Manchester, Lancashire,
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Marriage
Name: John Whitworth (Cashier, abode: Burnley)
Gender: Male
Age: Full Age
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Jul 1864
Parish: Bispham, All Hallows, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Bispham, All Hallows' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Spouse: Elizabeth Iddon (abode: Blackpool)
Spouse Age: Full Age
Father: John Whitworth (Grocer)
Spouse father: None entered
Register Type: Parish Register
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Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1899 HAWORTH William Burnley West Preston WHITWORTH BUW/7/1
1900 HAWORTH John Whitworth Burnley East Preston WHITWORTH BUE/13/76
1903 HAWORTH Rhoda Burnley East Preston WHITWORTH BUE/20/58
1905 HAWORTH Annie Burnley East Preston WHITWORTH BUE/28/4
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1865 WHITWORTH George Burnley Preston IDDON BU/68/69
1866 WHITWORTH Thomas Burnley Preston IDDON BU/72/86
1870 WHITWORTH William Burnley Preston IDDON BU/86/76
1872 WHITWORTH James Burnley Preston IDDON BU/93/51
1874 WHITWORTH Hannah Burnley Preston IDDON BU/104/51
1877 WHITWORTH Mary Elizabeth Burnley Preston IDDON BU/117/32
1879 WHITWORTH Martha Alice Burnley Preston IDDON BU/128/83
1881 WHITWORTH Arthur Burnley Preston IDDON BU/140/78
1885 WHITWORTH Edwin Burnley Preston IDDON BU/160/24
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1864q3
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WHITWORTH John IDDON Elizabeth Blackpool, St.John Blackpool D/1/205
Lewis (1848) lists 2 Bishphams, one in the union of Ormskirk, and one in the union of Fylse.
Since the early RDs were based on the poor law unions, and the marr was rego'ed in Fylde, it's the latter wiich is of interest here.
Lewis says the parish of Bispham has a chapelry at Blackpool, and LancsBMD says the marr is rego'ed in the Blackpool, St.John rego.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ gives:
Marriage: 6 Jul 1864 St John the Evangelist, Blackpool, Lancashire, England
John Whitworth - full Cashier Bachelor of Barnsley
Elizabeth Iddon - full Spinster of Blackpool
Groom's Father: John Whitworth, Grocer
Witness: George Whitworth; Sarah Carter
Married by: A. Jenour
Notes: [no name or occupation entered for brides father]
Register: Marriages 1836 - 1872, Page 103, Entry 205
Source: LDS Film 1526144
I think this is what AustinQ has posted, but the transcriber there has mistakenlyy assigned the marr to the mother parish (Bispham, All Hallows) rather the the chapelry where it took place.
Baptism: 29 Jan 1843 St Mary, Tarleton, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Iddon - [Child] of Betty Iddon, Single Wmn.
Abode: Tarleton
Baptised by: E. Ellwood
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1888, Page 29, Entry 227
Source: LDS Film 1278941
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1842
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
IDDON Elizabeth Tarleton Preston IDDON TAR/2/36
which corresponds to:
Births Dec 1842 (>99%)
Iddon Elizabeth Ormskirk 21 502
1851 There are two 8 yo Elizabeth Iddons with pob=Tarleton living with their grandparents
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG5W-YL5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG5W-YRK
Note the latter census is of Gorse Lane, the 1861 addy I found of interest.
1861 is a puzzle without a sub to check images.
We want an Elizabeth Iddon a=18, b Tarleton.
As you know, there are 3 main transcriptions of the non-Irish UK census.
Here is FreeCEN
1861 Census
Piece: RG9/2763 Place: Tarleton -Lancashire Enumeration District: 4d
Civil Parish: Tarleton Ecclesiastical Parish: Tarleton
Folio: 54 Page: 5 Schedule: 20
Address: Gorse Lane
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WHITTLE Richard Head M M 48 Ag Lab Lancashire - Tarleton
WHITTLE Elizabeth Wife M F 37 Lancashire - Tarleton
>>> WHITTLE Elizabeth J Servnt U F 18 House Serv Lancashire - Tarleton
WHITTLE Thomas Son - M 11 Scholar Lancashire - Tarleton
WHITTLE John Son - M 8 Scholar Lancashire - Tarleton
WHITTLE Alice Dau - F 4 Lancashire - Tarleton
WHITTLE Henry Son - M 1 Lancashire - Tarleton
Searching by census ref (i.e., piece/folio/page = 2763/54/5) gets Ancestry as:
Elizabeth J D Don 1843 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Lancashire
and FMP/FS as:
Elizabeth J ... 1843 Lancashire Ormskirk Tarleton Lancashire
I wonder if FreeCEN has mistranscribed "Iddon" as "J do" and taken do as ditto - but I'ld need to check the image.
1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDXQ-NZ9
Event Place Habergham Eaves, Lancashire, England
Registration Number RG10 Piece/Folio 4150/ 89 Page Number 1
John Whitworth Head M 28 Burnley, Lancashire
Elizabeth Whitworth Wife F 28 Laleston, Lancashire
George Whitworth Son M 5 Burnley, Lancashire
Thomas Whitworth Son M 4 Burnley, Lancashire
1881
Civil Parish: Habergham Eaves
Street address: 56 Accrington Rd
Registration district: Burnley
ED, institution, or vessel: 36
Piece: 4153 Folio: 19 Page Number: 32
John Whitworth 38 Burnley, Lancashire, England Head Bookeeper
Elizabeth Whitworth 38 Tauleton, Lancashire, England Wife
Thomas Whitworth 14 Burnley, Lancashire, England Son Cotton Factory Laborer
James Whitworth 9 Burnley, Lancashire, England Son Scholar
Hannah Whitworth 6 Burnley, Lancashire, England Daughter Scholar
Mary E. Whitworth 3 Burnley, Lancashire, England Daughter
Martha A. Whitworth 1 Burnley, Lancashire, England Daughter
1891 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QR71-1MM
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QRWM-YT2
[FS/FMP split this h/h into two at the page boundary]
Parish Habergham Eaves
Ecclesiastical Parish HOLY TRINITY
Registration District Burnley
Residence Note Accrington Road
Registration Number RG12 Piece/Folio 3368/ 109 Page Number 6
Jno Whitworth Head M 48 Lancashire, England
Elizth Whitworth Wife F 48 Lancashire, England
James Whitworth Son M 19 Lancashire, England
----------------
Registration Number RG12 Piece/Folio 3368/ 110 Page Number 7
Hannah Whitworth Daughter F 16 Lancashire, England
Mary Elizth Whitworth Daughter F 13 Lancashire, England
Martha Alice Whitworth Daughter F 11 Lancashire, England
Arthur Whitworth Son M 9 Lancashire, England
Edwin Whitworth Son M 6 Lancashire, England
1901 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9GD-F7Y
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Thankyou for all this research ...appreciate it, Mr Haworth will be amazed ....lots of info to take in. Thanks again :-D
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