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These are other possible siblings of your Grandad born after the 1911 census- sadly sons died before they reached a year old. Martha married in 1931:

Births Dec 1911
Turner Henry Richardson W.Ham 4a 57 (Possible death December 1911)

Births Dec 1912
TURNER Oswald Richardson W.Ham 4a 65 (Died 1913)

Births Dec 1914
Turner Martha F Richardson W. Ham 4a 11 (died 1982)

Births Jun 1916
Turner Oswald A Richardson W. Ham 4a 59 (Died 1916)
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This is Martha in 1939:

Scarborough Household 45 Cullum Street , West Ham C.B., Essex, England
Martha F Scarborough 30 Aug 1914 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
George W Scarborough 09 Jun 1911 Male Public Works Contractors Labou Married
Three closed records here.

Martha was his younger sister- she wasn't born until 1914:

Birth:
First name(s) MARTHA F
Last name TURNER
Birth year 1914
Birth quarter 4
Mother's last name RICHARDSON
District WEST HAM
County Essex
Volume 4A Page 11

martha was my granddads sister

No, Susan, not Martha.

From the information that's been given it looks like William Horace's twin sister was Elizabeth Catherine- they were both born in 1909 West Ham.

Who is Martha?

was martha my granddads twin wiliam horace turner

The page number of the marriage indicates that it was not in a CofE church. So maybe they had been married unofficially in another church around 1906 and legalised it in1913.

Yes, that one has me wondering too .......

The other thread (don't you just hate having to flip between one and another) suggests Oswald and Catherine married in 1913, despite the 1911 showing them as married 5 years with 3 children born and living

Marriages Dec 1913 (>99%)
Gubbins Edith F Hales West Ham 4a 565
Hales William H Gubbins W.Ham 4a 565
Richardson Catherine A M Turner W.Ham 4a 565
Turner Oswald Richardson W.Ham 4a 565

------------------------------------
Catherine born a little earlier than the 1911 suggests
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Jun 1883 (>99%)
RICHARDSON Catherine Alice M Edmonton 3a 336

Looks good to me greyghost, fits with the children in the above 1911 census (Horace and Elizabeth aged 1 and also the sept Q 1909 birth registrations.
I wonder if the child William aged 4 (in the above census) could have been Catherine's child before she met Oswald and that William Horace was known as Horace to save confusion.

Bearing in mind above for William Horace, could this possibly be Elizabeth - going by DOB and in the West Ham area.

Jones Household (2 People)
50 Station Street , West Ham C.B., Essex, England

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Elizabeth Jones 25 Jul 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 137 2
Charles Jones 13 Nov 1910 Male Paint Packing Clerk Married 137 1

Possibility of 2 closed records on following page looking at run of house and schedule numbers

--------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1930 (>99%)
Jones Charles Turner W. Ham 4a 466

If this is William Horace in 1939, his DOB shows as 25.7.1909. Other thread has him marrying Eleanor Q Stanford


Turner Household (3 People)
157 Gorseway , Dagenham M.B., Essex, England
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FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
William H Turner 25 Jul 1909 Male Motor Lorry Driver Married 196 1
Eleanor Q Turner 19 Apr 1912 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 196 2
Roy W Turner 30 Jan 1933 Male At School Single 196 3

There is also 1 closed record

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1909 (>99%)
Brown Joseph James W.Ham 4a 126
GREEN Beatrice Amelia W. Ham 4a 126
HASTINGS Winifred Russell W. Ham 4a 126
KERSEY Amy Winifred W. Ham 4a 126
Lawrence Rose Charlotte W. Ham 4a 126
Russell Winifred W. Ham 4a 126
Steel Arthur Henry W. Ham 4a 126
Sweet Alfred W. Ham 4a 126
TURNER Elizabeth Catherine W.Ham 4a 126<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
TURNER William Horace W.Ham 4a 126 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Woodruff Jessie W. Ham 4a 126


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<TWINS

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1362169

From posts above - Horace Turner's birth appears to have been registered in the 3rd Quarter of 1909 which would make him still only 1 year old when the 1911 census was taken.

Elizabeth's birth registered 2nd Quarter 1910, so she could have been born from mid February onwards to end of June, which would also mean she might well have been aged one when the census was taken. There is a 6 week allowance from date of birth in which to register it.

Likewise, you would expect to see a registration with the same details apart from first name if there was a twin.

IF there was twin, then maybe it was stillborn in which case the birth would not be registered.

The year of birth on a census is calculated by taking age from year i.e. age 1 in 1911, born 1910. However, there is more chance that the birth was in the previous year. Census were normally taken late March/Early April so a child born say May 1909 would only be aged one at time of census but the census would show born 1910.

1911 census with places of birth

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
2 Holttum Place Church St West Ham E, West Ham, Essex, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Oswald Turner Head Married Male Dock Labourer 27 1884 Midsx Bow
Kathrine Turner Wife Married Female - 26 1885 Edmondton Midsx
William Turner Son - Male - 4 1907 West Ham Essex
Horace Turner Son - Male - 1 1910 Plaistow Essex
Elizabeth Turner Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Plaistow Essex

This looks to be Oswald's birth. If he had a twin you would expect to see another Turner with all the same details apart from First Name

Births Sep 1883 (>99%)

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Turner Oswald Mile End 1c 547

thank you so did horice or william horice have a twin frederick thank you

HORACE
Last name TURNER
Birth year 1908
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District WEST HAM
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 376
Record set England & Wales births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

© brightsolid online publishing ltd

Report an error in this transcription

ELIZABETH
Last name TURNER
Birth year 1910
Birth quarter 1
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District WEST HAM
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 400A
Record set England & Wales births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

© brightsolid online publishing ltd

is this him 1911

William Turner

in the 1911 England Census
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Name: William Turner
Age in 1911: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1907
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: West Ham, Essex
Civil Parish: West Ham
Search Photos: Search for 'West Ham' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 2 Holttum Place, Church Street, West Ham
Registration district: West Ham
Registration District Number: 188
Sub-registration district: Plaistow
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 26
Piece: 9423
Household Members:
Name Age
Oswald Turner 27
Cathrine Turner 26
William Turner 4
Horace Turner 1
Elizabth Turner 1

Name: William Horace Turner
Registration Year: 1909
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: West Ham
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 126

my uncle is telling me his dad william horice turner born in1910 in stratford father oswald had a twin think called frederick not sure if its william horice or oswald had the twin brother thank you