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Hi everyone, apologies if this is in the wrong forum (I haven't used this site in a few years!)

I've hit a brick wall with the furthest ancestor of my name (Birks) and it's only as far back as 1837. I have the census records which list him as John Birks (1837) born in Mansfield, Nottingham.

I also have 9 matches with people whom I have contacted however what I am wondering is if anybody could tell me which records I need to be looking at to find the mother and particularly father of this relative as I am particularly interested in tracing this line due to it being my namesake..

Any help would be fantastic, thanks a lot :)

Welcome to the boards, Matthew.

1841 census would give his parents' names, unless he was living with someone else for some reason.
What censuses have you found him on?

Is this him? Later censuses show him as Birks.


???


John Berks
in the 1841 England Census
Name: John Berks
[John Birks]
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Gender: Male
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: St Mary
Hundred: Nottingham
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration district: Nottingham
Sub-registration district: St Mary
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 870
Book: 8
Folio: 33
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Berks 25
Mary Berks 25
John Berks 4


John Berks
in the 1851 England Census
Name: John Berks
[John Birks]
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1838
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas Berks
Mother's name: Mary Ann Berks
Gender: Male
Where born: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Nottingham St Mary
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Nottingham
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 91
Piece: 2131
Folio: 397
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Berks 38 - born Retford, Notts.
Mary Ann Berks 38 - St Mary, Notts.
John Berks 13
Fanny Berks 9
Bingby Berks 5
Henry Berks 1

Possibly Thomas's birth - if that's the right family above:

(from FamilySearch)

Thomas Birks
England Births and Christenings
Name Thomas Birks
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Oct 1812
Christening Place EAST RETFORD,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Birks
Mother's Name Ann

Perhaps Thomas's marriage:


Thomas Birks
mentioned in the record of Thomas Birks and Mary Anne Milward
Name Thomas Birks
Spouse's Name Mary Anne Milward
Event Date 02 Feb 1834
Event Place Mansfield,Nottingham,England

"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch
England Marriages, 1538–1973
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M04486-1
System Origin England-ODM
GS Film number 504077, 504078

COPY PRINT SOURCE BOX SHARE
Attach to Family Tree
John Birks.


John George Birks
England Births and Christenings
Name John George Birks
Gender Male
Christening Date 29 Oct 1837
Christening Place MANSFIELD,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Birth Date 11 Oct 1837
Father's Name John Birks
Mother's Name Mary Anne

from familysearch.org.

Hi thanks for the quick replies! it certainly looks like him! This is the following information i have on him...

John Birks born 16th October 1837, in Retford, Mansfield , Nottingham England.
Married to Mary Bagguley (1850) had the following children...

John, David, Ellen, Constance, Fanny, William and Ernest.

I found the record of him on the England and Wales births 1837-2006 document on genesreunited.com

I have found this following link : - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFTV-N28

Looks to be John Birk's father, does that look correct?

(from that 1871, I see below, with websites)

Chris :)

http://www.isle-of-wight-fhs.co.uk/index.php

1863 BIRKS
Thomas ROWSON Newport N21/P54

1865 BIRKS
Henry ROWSON Newport N22/P90


Marriages Jun 1858 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
BIRKS John Nottingham 7b 305
Rowson Elizabeth Nottingham 7b 305

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl


Baptism
County Kent
Place Old Brompton
Church name Chatham Garrison Church
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 155
Baptism date 21 Apr 1867
Person forename David
Person sex M
Person abode St Marys Barracks
Father forename John
Father surname BIRKS
Father occupation Corporal 2/22nd
Mother forename Elizabeth

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


1861 (Find My Past) (although he is down 'Unmarried')
First name(s) John
Last name Birks
Marital status Unmarried
Gender Male
Age 23
Birth year 1838
Occupation Private Soldier
Birth town as transcribed NOTTINGHAM MANSFIELD
Parish Carisbrooke
City or borough Newport
County Hampshire
Parliamentary borough Newport
Ecclesiastical district St Johns
Registration district Isle of Wight
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 655
Folio number 158
Page number 15


England, Births & Baptisms 1538-1975 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s)
John
Last name Birks
Gender Male
Birth year 1837
Baptism year 1838
Baptism date 26 Aug 1838
Residence Darley, Derbyshire, England
Place Darley Dale
County Derbyshire
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Birks
Mother's first name(s) Mary Ann


(if above fits, you would need Marriage Cert., for John. Where/when is this Bagguley/Birks Marriage?)


(and just to add, looking on below free link (using Soundex) there could be variants of surname)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


(is this Bingley from 1851?)

Births Jun 1845 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
BIRKS Bingley Nottingham 15 618


Marriages Dec 1866 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Burks Bingley Nottingham 7b 412
Clarke Elizabeth Nottingham 7b 412


County Nottinghamshire
Place Nottingham
Church name St Mary
Register type Transcript
Marriage date 24 Dec 1866
Groom forename Bingley
Groom surname BURKS
Groom age 22
Bride forename Elizabeth
Bride surname CLARKE
Bride age 20
Groom father forename Thomas
Groom father surname BURKS
Bride father forename George
Bride father surname CLARKE
Register note Groom signed X. Bride signed X.

Births Sep 1868 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
BIRKS Lavinia Sunderland 10a 536

Births Dec 1876 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
BIRKS Ellen Leicester 7a 218

Births Jun 1880 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
BIRKS Constance Annie Leicester 7a 241


(looking at 1881, what is Surname of Mother, from above Certs.?)

Chris :)

(1871 Farnham, Surrey. Lavinia is with John (Widower) and a Charles (6mths. Born Sheffield)

Births Sep 1870 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------
Birks Charles Ecclesall B. 9c 247


(possible)

National Burial Index for England & Wales Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name BIRKS
Birth year 1838
Death year 1870
Age 32
Burial year1870
Burial day 11
Burial month 9
Place SHEFFIELD
Church description ST PHILIP
Church denomination ANGLICAN
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)


Deaths Sep 1870 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Birks Elizabeth 32 Ecclesall B. 9c 154

Edits

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1266434

(Wendy has just 'nudged' her Nottinghamshire Archives Look Up's Thread, she might be able to help!, give her reference or link to this one)


(and for when you get back further, seeing name from google search, if it happened to relate, from a Will dated 1789, Henry Bingley)

http://tinyurl.com/hgskap7

I Give to my Godson Bingley Birks who lives with his father, an Engine maker at Mansfield in Nottinghamshire, and is now about the age of sixteen years...)


(if Marriage of Bingley in article)

County Nottinghamshire
Place Mansfield
Church name St Peter and St Paul
Register type Unspecified
Marriage date 29 Sep 1796
Groom forename Bingley
Groom surname BIRKS
Bride forename Ann
Bride surname WILSON

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

Brilliant, thank you. Have posted on Wendy's thread

Hi Matthew,

Thank you for your link, I'll see if I can find anything in the archives this week for you, there is nothing on my marriage disc but it's an old one and doesn't cover Retford area.
I'll post anything I find on here and not my thread so keeps all your info in one place.

Wendy

Can you tell us who you are linking to Matthew, to get back to John, have you got any Marriage Certs. for him to give Thomas for his Father?...

Chris :)

As mentioned by Chris above, John's single in 1861, and a widower in 1871, with children Lavinia (transcribed as Louisa on ancestry) and Charles.

By 1881 he has a new wife, Mary A.
All the children are listed as son or daughter of John's mother, Mary A senior, though going by the 1871 mentioned above, they are John's children.

Thomas was born 1863 in the Isle of Wight, so presumably John's first marriage was between 1861 and 1863.

[ EDIT - No, just realised they married in 1858 , per marriage posted by Chris. ]

Thomas Birks
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Thomas Birks
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relationship to Head: Son
Mother: Mary A. Birks
Gender: Male
Where born: Parkhurst, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Leicester St Margaret
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England
Street address: 17 New Lane
Occupation: Shoe Hand
Registration district: Leicester
ED, institution, or vessel: 108
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3171
Folio: 98
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary A. Birks 65
John Birks 43 - son
Mary A. Birks 32 - daughter-in-law
Elizabeth Birks 21 - daughter
Thomas Birks 18 - son
Henry Birks 15 - son
David Birks 14 - son
Lavinier Birks 12 - daughter
Ellen Birks 4 - dau
Constance A. Birks


Thomas's birth:

Thomas Birks
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Thomas Birks
Registration Year: 1863
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Isle of Wight
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2b
Page: 474


Don't know who his first wife was, [EDIT: sorry, looks like she was Elizabeth, as found by Chris] but I guess this is his second marriage:

Marriages Dec 1874 (>99%)
ANDREWS Mary Ann Leicester 7a 478
BIRKS John Leicester 7a 478

Ellen and Constance will be Mary Ann's children, and the others listed in 1881 will be the children of the first wife.

Birth of daughter Elizabeth :

Births Sep 1859 (>99%)
Birks Elizabeth Ann Nottingham 7b 202


And in 1861 with Rowson grandparents:


Elizth Ann Birks
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Elizth Ann Birks
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: 1860
Relation: Granddaughter
Mother's name: Elizth Birks
Gender: Female
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Nottingham
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration district: Nottingham
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 98
Piece: 2455
Folio: 56
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
John Rowson 52
Hannah Rowson 52
George Rowson 18
Sarah Rowson 17
Samuel Rowson 15
Anne Rowson 13
Elizth Birks 23
Elizth Ann Birks 1
John Birks 0


John's stated unmarried status in 1861 may be just what the enumerator put down - looking through the pages of that record, all the private soldiers are listed as unmarried. Maybe it was just easier to assume they were unmarried than to check each one individually.

Soldiers were not supposed to marry without permission ................. those that did, and were found out, had to secure permission and then get married all over again.

John possibly had not admitted that he eas married :-)

Wendy - thank you that is fantastic of you.

Chris - Sadly not, no marriage cert for John. I was linking to a possible father (Thomas Birks)

Well you need that 1858 Marriage Cert...(the only way to be sure of things, as you work back!)

If you say that 1871 Census relates, then the Birks/Rowson Marriage would fit, 2 boys born Isle of Wight, give Maiden name of Mother as Rowson (I posted the Birth details from IOW link)

Chris :)

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

(you need to order Cert. from above £9.25)

Edits (just noted below on gro)

Website Maintenance
The website will be unavailable on Thursday 20th October between 07:30 and 08:30 for essential maintenance to take place.


(quickly adds apologies, forgot Wendy was going to look first!)

Hi Matthew,

Sorry to have taken so long but here are the detail of the marriage of John Birks;

St Mary's Church, Nottingham, 27 June 1858

John Birks, full age, Bachelor, a Printer, of Baker Gate, father Thomas Birks, a Wood Turner
Elizabeth Rowson, full age, of Victoria Street, father John Rowson , a frame Smith.
witnesses were; Frederick Lawson? and Fanny Birks.

I'll pm you a copy.

Wendy